OK, das "schwach werden" kann ich dabei aber fast schon wieder verstehen... wir haben aber glaub´ ich zu dem Johannes Markus schon mindestens einen Thread... ich such ihn gleich mal...Cherry hat geschrieben:.. hast ja Recht, nur manchmal werde ich auch schwach ...Ecce Homo hat geschrieben:Leise Anmerkung... Bitte hier zumindest primär bei Medju bleiben und sich nicht von weiteren Pseudopropheten irritieren lassen...
[/size]Ich habe bewußt "traditionalistisch geschminkt" geschrieben, weil es ein Pseudotraditionalismus ist.anneke6 hat geschrieben:Aber es ist interessant, daß Medju unter anderem — ich nenne sie mal so — traditionalistisch geschminkte Schwärmer anzieht.
Ich verstehe Deine Zweifel, die Du bezüglich Medjugorje hast. Man muß ja auch gar nicht an Privatoffenbarungen glauben, und niemals würde ich behaupten, daß Du ohne eine Reise nach Medjugorje schlechter daran wärest. Bekehren kann man sich überall, und vielleicht sollte eher ich bekehrt werden und nicht Du. Außerdem glaube ich Dir, wenn Du meinst, es würde Dir dort nicht gefallen, selbst wenn Du noch nie da warst. Wenn ich nach Medjugorje fahre, weil ich mich dort bekehrt habe, und weil ich glaube, daß die Gospa dort erscheint, ist das meine Sache, und ich werde niemanden versuchen zu überreden, dasselbe zu tun.
Photo 1 is the first of three shots depicting this furtive activity. It shows Fr. Vlasic sitting at a desk writing, as female "visionary", Maria Pavlovic, stands to the right looking down, and millionaire "visionary", Ivan, seated in the background guards the entryway from intruders; i.e. anyone who might discover their intrigue. The white streaks in the photo are from the window curtains.
[...]On this particular occasion, before being detected, Mr. Furhoff was able to take several snapshots of Fr. Vlasic collaborating with two of his willing and very guarded "visionaries". [---]
Photo 2 depicts female "visionary" Maria Pavlovic adding a few lines to the Medjugorian "message of the day" as Fr. Vlasic patiently waits to edit her inclusions.
Bishop Zanic was understandably alarmed and disturbed when photographer, Walter Furhoff, presented his findings. Enough so, that His Excellency asked him to prepare an official dossier to include these photos.
Stoned by Jakov's uncle, sadly known as the village drunk, and threatened with death by Ivan, Mr. Furhoff returned to Germany for his health. When the bishop was subsequently silenced, these photos, together with other damaging information, were kept under lock and key awaiting a safer time to expose them.
Mr. Furhoff owns a vast collection of material and data related to the deceptive happenings and operations of Medjugorje.
[...]
Photo 3 depicts female "visionary" Maria Pavlovic holding a hand over her heart as she hears Mr. Furhoff on the ledge, and turns to the cameraman recording her "message session" through the window curtains.
Maria heard a noise from outside and showed signs of being shocked. Looking towards the window, hands to her chest, she was the first to discover Walter.
The visionaries said nothing, but Fr. Vlasic and another Franciscan confronted the photographer with, "What are you doing?" He replied, "It's not what I am doing but what you are doing. You are deceiving everybody."
When Mr. Furhoff asked for the pieces of paper to examine the handwriting, the Franciscans barked, "What do you think we are... liars and magicians?"
[...]
Keine Ahnung, ob er das ist oder nicht...anneke6 hat geschrieben:Ein Traditionalist, oder?
Da gibt es noch mehr Bücher, die das sagen, und noch weitaus mehr, die die "Erscheinungen" propagieren...anneke6 hat geschrieben:Ich habe das Buch auch bereits gelesen, anfangs mit Schwierigkeiten, aber dann ging's ganz flüssig.
Ich denke, wenn auch nur 5% von dem, was Davis unterstellt, wirklich stimmt, dann kann ich nur sagen: Es ist etwas faul im Staate Medjugorje!
*Von hier*Michael Davies, who was born in 1936, was brought up in Somerset, although of Welsh descent, and served as a regular soldier in the Somerset Light Infantry during the Malayan emergency, the Suez Crisis, and the EOKA campaign in Cyprus. He then taught in Catholic schools for thirty years until retiring in 1992 to take up writing full time. He has contributed articles to Catholic journals throughout the English-speaking world, and is the author of seventeen full length books and several dozen pamphlets relating to the Catholic Faith, some of them have been translated into a number of languages. His recent biographies of St. John Fisher and Cardinal Newman have been widely praised throughout the English-speaking world. Cranmer's Godly Order, his account of the Reformation in England is now in its sixth edition. He makes regular visits to Rome for discussions with members of the Curia, including a number of prominent cardinals, and has lectured throughout the world in countries as far afield as the Philippines, India, and Nigeria.
*Von hier*´[...]
III. – “Apparitions”.First of all, the fact that a person makes a humble Confession and receives Holy Communion in this parish church and that this person feels spiritually well due to God’s forgiveness, each and every believer will recognize and give due praise to God for this, who is the source of all graces. At the same time, this person will take care not to proceed from this state of grace towards an illogical and inconsistent conclusion: “I made a Confession. I feel good and now I am converted. Therefore the Madonna is appearing in Medjugorje!” This type of believer and penitent is nonetheless obliged to go to confession, receive the other sacraments, observe the Commandments, whether any private apparitions are recognized or not.
Secondly, I would be an irresponsible minister of the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ, if today I were not to publicly advise, from this place and on this occasion as well, to all those interested throughout the world, that in this local Church of Mostar-Duvno, there exists something similar to a schism. A number of priests that have been expelled from the Franciscan OFM Order by the Generalate of the Order, due to their disobedience to the Holy Father, for years now have been forcefully keeping a few parish churches and rectories along with church inventory. They have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely, while others invalidly, such as Confession and Confirmation, or they have assisted at invalid marriages. This type of anti-ecclesial behaviour is shocking to all of us. At the same time, this scandal of sacrilegiously administering the sacraments, especially of the Most Holy Body of Christ, must shock all the faithful as well who invalidly confess their sins to these priests and participate in sacrilegious liturgies. We pray to the Lord that this scandal and schism be uprooted as soon as possible from our midst.
Thirdly, I am truly grateful to the Holy Father the Pope, to John Paul II of blessed memory and to the reigning Benedict XVI, who have always respected the judgements of the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, of the previous as well as the current bishop, regarding the so-called “apparitions” and “messages” of Medjugorje, all the while recognizing the Holy Father’s right to give a final decision on these events. The judgements of the bishops, after all the canonical investigations made thus far, can be summarized in these following points:
1 - Medjugorje is a catholic parish in which liturgical and pastoral activities are carried out, just as in all the other parishes of this diocese of Mostar-Duvno. No-one except the official Church authorities is then authorized to attribute the formal title of “shrine” to this place.
2 - On the basis of Church investigations of the events of Medjugorje, it cannot be determined that these events involve supernatural apparitions or revelations. This means that till now the Church has not accepted, neither as supernatural nor as Marian, any of the apparitions.
3 - Priests who canonically administer this parish of Medjugorje or those who come as visitors, are not authorised to express their private views contrary to the official position of the Church on the so-called “apparitions” and “messages”, during celebrations of the sacraments, neither during other common acts of piety, nor in the Catholic media.
4 - The Catholic faithful are not only free from any obligation to believe in the authenticity of the “apparitions” but they must also know that church pilgrimages are not allowed, whether official or private, individual or group, or from other parishes, if they presuppose the authenticity of the “apparitions” or if by undertaking them attempt to certify these “apparitions”.
5 - As the local Bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far, throughout these last 25 years, the Church has not confirmed a single “apparition” as authentically being the Madonna. The fact that during these 25 years there has been talk of tens of thousands of “apparitions” does not contribute any authenticity to these events, which according to the words of our current Pope, who I encountered during an audience on 24 February this year, commented that at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith they always questioned how all these “apparitions” could be considered authentic for the Catholic faithful. They particularly do not seem to be authentic when it is known beforehand that these so-called “apparitions” will occur:
To one of the “seers” on the 18 th of March every year, but along with this she will also receive an “apparition” on the 2 nd of each month, with “messages” which you can expect, according to the established procedures;
The second will receive an apparition on every day of the year, and if this were not enough, an added special “apparition” on the 25 th of each month along with a type of press release, which once again you can foresee and expect;
The third will receive an “apparition” on the 25 th of December, on Christmas day, along with a message similar to the ones already mentioned;
The fourth will receive an “apparition” on the 8 th of September every year along with a specific message;
The remaining two will receive the same, every day along with “messages” that can be anticipated since they are variations on the same theme. This fact and the flood of so-called apparitions, messages, secrets and signs, do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing neither authentic nor established as truthful. [...]
Na ja, Mos. Gemma sollte sich vielleicht erstmal über Medjugorje informieren, bevor er Interviews zu dem Thema gibt. Schon seine erste Antwort, die Kirche hätte durch den Bischof von Mostar offiziell festgestellt, Medjugorje sei Teufelszeug, ist falsch.ar26 hat geschrieben:Bei kreuz.net gibt es eine Zusammenfassung. Allerdings find ich deren Arbeit handwerklich schlecht, so daß ich mal das italienische Original hier verlinke. Wer italienisch kann, kann ja sich ja mal dazu äußern.
http://www.effedieffe.com/content/view/3146/183/
...sei teufelszeug...Dr. Dirk hat geschrieben:Na ja, Mos. Gemma sollte sich vielleicht erstmal über Medjugorje informieren, bevor er Interviews zu dem Thema gibt. Schon seine erste Antwort, die Kirche hätte durch den Bischof von Mostar offiziell festgestellt, Medjugorje sei Teufelszeug, ist falsch.ar26 hat geschrieben:Bei kreuz.net gibt es eine Zusammenfassung. Allerdings find ich deren Arbeit handwerklich schlecht, so daß ich mal das italienische Original hier verlinke. Wer italienisch kann, kann ja sich ja mal dazu äußern.
http://www.effedieffe.com/content/view/3146/183/
Wissentlich Falschmeldungen zu verbreiten ist dagegen Teufelszeug. Ich hoffe also für Mos. Gemma, dass er die Fakten tatsächlich nicht kennt. Als Exorzist sollte man besser kein Teufelszeug machen...
Es ist aber schon ein starkes Stück, wenn dieser Herr erklärt, die Kirche hätte offiziell durch den Bischof von Mostar gesprochen, der Vatikan aber ausdrücklich die Haltung dieses Bischofs zu den Phänomenen in Medjugorje als persönliche Überzeugung eingestuft und die Ergebnisse der beiden Komissionen des Bischofs nicht angenommen hat.maliems hat geschrieben: ok, als wissenschaftlich belegte aussage habe ich das bisher auch nicht gelesen, aber ein interwview ist keine doktorarbeit.
obwohl da schon einiges gesagt wurde... 
